tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post4855865366799976261..comments2024-03-26T07:00:11.620-05:00Comments on Wisdom of the Hands: sawdust and oil do mix part 2Doug Stowehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13003845322415622289noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-48024687371242826672017-08-01T11:32:22.572-05:002017-08-01T11:32:22.572-05:00Hi there, this weekend is nice designed for me, si...Hi there, this weekend is nice designed for me, since this time i am reading this fantastic educational post here at my residence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-64209633581912552282016-02-18T19:14:20.496-06:002016-02-18T19:14:20.496-06:00I've been thinking that this is the answer sin...I've been thinking that this is the answer since the first big spill in Alaska many years ago. Figure out how to turn what's collected into bricks that can be used as fuel, and you'll have a billion dollar idea. Elaine Nashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14029571013094420646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-87775399824343026692016-02-02T18:33:39.150-06:002016-02-02T18:33:39.150-06:00The idea would be for the sawdust to remove the oi...The idea would be for the sawdust to remove the oil. If you read through the experiment I presented, the sawdust and oil coagulate on the surface of the water so that it and the oil can be more easily removed. Try removing oil in a similar fashion without it being first absorbed by something, and you may get the idea.<br /><br />The runoff from the destruction of forests is not in the form of sawdust but of soil.<br /><br />In my experiment, very little sawdust remained in the water. But how does that trace amount of sawdust compare with the runoff of soil that smothers coral reefs?<br /><br />Here the idea is to remove the oil from of the water. We know that oil in the water kills fish and coral reefs. We do not know that trace amounts of sawdust would have anywhere near the same effect.<br /><br />I'll remind you that this was simply an experiment in a Guinness glass, a hypothesis upon which I made a simple test. Some further research would be warranted, though I doubt that anyone in the industry will pay any attention to it.Doug Stowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003845322415622289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-2645306939914622372016-02-02T18:16:39.725-06:002016-02-02T18:16:39.725-06:00I never suggested the destruction of forests was f...I never suggested the destruction of forests was from making your sawdust. Simply a cause of the soil runoff. The soil runoff caused by the destruction of forests is a current event. Back to my point that was completely disreguarded, the sawdust left in the water what are your thoughts?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17035757248842279944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-2142789597779884192016-02-02T17:17:24.436-06:002016-02-02T17:17:24.436-06:00I would never suggest that forests be cut as a sou...I would never suggest that forests be cut as a source of supply for sawdust. But that sawdust from industry might be useful to gather oil rather than "dispersing" it which has now been proven to be a very bad idea.<br /><br />The best thing of all would be to end our reliance on fossil fuels and the multiple layers of destruction they cause. On the other hand, our forests are now being destroyed to supply wood pellets for power plants in Europe, under the guise that our forests are "renewable energy." That is a blatant lie. Forests, once destroyed, do not come back as they were, even in multiple generations.Doug Stowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003845322415622289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-34138727189165801102016-02-02T16:29:04.420-06:002016-02-02T16:29:04.420-06:00One thing that could be trouble is sawdust in tge ...One thing that could be trouble is sawdust in tge water. Run off soil from the destruction of forests covers coral reefs and suffocates fish. Does anybody else see that as a potential problem?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17035757248842279944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-37377437470144393772010-06-21T11:26:07.827-05:002010-06-21T11:26:07.827-05:00Someone had asked where we could possibly get enou...Someone had asked where we could possibly get enough sawdust, but I just returned from the Furniture Society Conference and one of the presenters showed a mound of chipped trees urban trees ready for the landfill that was easily 20 feet high and 50' x 200'. We throw away and amazing amount of forest products. But then other agricultural wastes could also be used with little or no toxic effect.<br /><br />You get the oil people hanging out with chemical engineers and the only solutions they will find will be chemical.Doug Stowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003845322415622289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-84349436498626209012010-06-21T11:06:14.970-05:002010-06-21T11:06:14.970-05:00Doug,
Your solution is brilliant in its simplicit...Doug,<br /><br />Your solution is brilliant in its simplicity. I agree that chemical dispersants aren't a viable solution. If oil were spilled on dry land, you wouldn't throw sand over it to hide it, would you? With chemical spills on land, the contaminated soil is moved to a location where the contaminate won't migrate into the ground water. How long until what's in the Gulf (oil and toxic dispersants) ends up in our food chain.<br /><br />It is obvious that using Doug's idea, the coagulated oil and sawdust could be scooped up using existing technology algae skimmers, hauled to shore and used as some sort of bio-fuel. <br /><br />But, corporations don't like common-sense solutions they always turn to something dreamed in a lab by someone in a white labcoat. Why do chemicals always have to trump common sense solutions?<br /><br />Case in point, if you want to get rid of wasps, do you use chemical insecticides or wasp traps?Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05534940030604049068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-38015307526963870932010-06-02T22:32:27.938-05:002010-06-02T22:32:27.938-05:00The effects of the dispersants are, besides disper...The effects of the dispersants are, besides dispersing oil, to cause bacterial action breaking down the oil. Bacterial activity uses the oxygen available in the water. Consequently, the oxygen required for other marine life is gone where the dispersants are used. There will be dead zones in the gulf for some time to come. Do you think that BP will be willing to accept responsibility for this catastrophe?Doug Stowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003845322415622289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-36115112804531169042010-06-02T22:10:30.866-05:002010-06-02T22:10:30.866-05:00When I saw how much oil was spilling into the gulf...When I saw how much oil was spilling into the gulf, I thought with a little oil it makes sense to disperse, but with that much it would be better if they could consolidate, or clump. I didn't realize it could be so simple and non toxic to do so. <br /><br />JMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-92206417407736520342010-05-29T07:33:48.789-05:002010-05-29T07:33:48.789-05:00I found your experiment and articles very interest...I found your experiment and articles very interesting. I thought of the sawdust solution back in the Valdez days. It's natural, non-toxic, absorbent, and easily re-collectable. My idea has been to drop sawdust from choppers and shoot from 'sawdust cannons' from boats to absorb the oil, re-collect it, put it through a heated drying process to remove the water, mix with a wax mixture to make it bind wll, form it into bricks, and wah-lah... you have a burnable fuel. Possible?? (If a middle aged mom like me can figure this out, why can't the big guns at the oil companies?)Elaine Nashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11204159089577778699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-66035126695892688012010-05-29T07:33:48.788-05:002010-05-29T07:33:48.788-05:00I found your experiment and articles very interest...I found your experiment and articles very interesting. I thought of the sawdust solution back in the Valdez days. It's natural, non-toxic, absorbent, and easily re-collectable. My idea has been to drop sawdust from choppers and shoot from 'sawdust cannons' from boats to absorb the oil, re-collect it, put it through a heated drying process to remove the water, mix with a wax mixture to make it bind wll, form it into bricks, and wah-lah... you have a burnable fuel. Possible?? (If a middle aged mom like me can figure this out, why can't the big guns at the oil companies?)Elaine Nashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11204159089577778699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-13110582865747664062010-05-15T22:06:54.006-05:002010-05-15T22:06:54.006-05:00Scientists have determined that the leak of oil is...Scientists have determined that the leak of oil is several times larger than admitted earlier, and were wondering where all the oil went. I turns out that there is at least one and possibly several plumes of underwater oil 10 miles long, 3 miles wide and hundreds of feet thick. The plumes have been hidden and possibly prevented from rising to the surface by dispersants injected underwater. Read about it <a href="http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/5/15/866824/-Vast-Undersea-PollutionBPs-%28invisible%29-Disaster" rel="nofollow">here...</a><br /><br />As I had stated earlier, the dispersants make it seem to go away... the principle if you don't see it it isn't there. Booms are put out to make it look like the oil company is doing something. In the meantime, the combination of the oil and dispersants are creating a toxic soup. An expert on NPR today from the University of Louisiana said that the effects of dispersants at the surface of water are well known and used to encourage biological action. The effects below the surface are unknown and quite likely dangerous.Doug Stowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003845322415622289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-34467811665897692232010-05-15T22:04:47.957-05:002010-05-15T22:04:47.957-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Doug Stowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003845322415622289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-3066798397933233562010-05-15T19:21:50.841-05:002010-05-15T19:21:50.841-05:00Doug, I would describe the goal of oil dispersal t...Doug, I would describe the goal of oil dispersal to be magnification rather than dilution. Since the miscibility of oil in water is low, oil cannot be truly diluted. Increasing its surface area allows relatively rapid bacterial attack.<br /><br />Industrial chemicals such as dioxins, PCBs, & many more are typically little affected by bacterial action. They are somewhat unnatural chemicals (although some natural fires produce dioxins) that are mostly amenable to attack only by comparably artificial means (high-temperature incineration, genetically engineered bacteria). Dilution was a default 'treatment' that made low levels of such contaminants ubiquitous.<br /><br />I was reminded today of a good application for consolidation of spilled oil. Gulf barrier islands are having flood channels into their wetlands blocked (Corps of Engineers + lotsa rocks) to keep oil from getting further than beaches. Consolidation (whether by sawdust or ?) at these focus points could be helpful.Jimhttp://heygetthis.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-67370250884561342062010-05-15T06:39:19.241-05:002010-05-15T06:39:19.241-05:00Jim,
When I first got involved in water quality is...Jim,<br />When I first got involved in water quality issues in the 1970s, the old engineers loudly proclaimed, "Dilution is the solution to pollution." Since then we have become a bit more knowledgeable of the consequences of that strategy. We have dioxin, polychlorinated biphenyls(PCBs), and all kinds of other compounds we have distributed through dilution into the environment with serious toxic effects. Thanks for the links. And for adding some thought to the stew.Doug Stowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003845322415622289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-33205807374655833732010-05-14T23:10:04.872-05:002010-05-14T23:10:04.872-05:00Doug, it was fun discovering your blog & websi...Doug, it was fun discovering your blog & website.<br /><br />As already noted in comments, your sawdust demonstration achieves a very different result than dispersants.<br /><br />The real tool/ally for oil spill clean-up is biological. Dispersants vastly increase the surface area of the oil, allowing bacterial attack to consume it rapidly. A layman's reference:<br />[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispersant].<br /><br />Consolidation of oil might not be desirable. It is desirable to the extent that consolidated material can be recovered. The 3-dimensional search & intercept required to do so is illustrated by the difficult deployments of booms. Booms are, depending upon geographic extent of the oil plume(s) and wave action, sometimes inappropriate. Hence, aircraft are used to spray dispersants that can cover wide areas.<br /><br />An example of the trickiness of even knowing whether a treatment is effective: 'A White Paper on Oil Spill Dispersant Effectiveness Testing in Large Tanks'<br />[www.pwsrcac.org/docs/d0001700.pdf].<br /><br />Thanks for being thoughtful about this problem. I hope that you continue to consider solutions.Jimhttp://heygetthis.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-58582649613553196482010-05-14T22:06:18.971-05:002010-05-14T22:06:18.971-05:00http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulsion
Just a bit ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulsion<br /><br />Just a bit of further clarification. What the oil company has been doing by spreading dispersants is to create an emulsion. Dispersants and surfactants don't take the oil out of the water, they just spread it out turning the oil and water mix into an emulsion where you don't see it. That does not necessarily mean that it no longer has chemical effect on the environment. <br /><br />You could say that water and oil remain two immiscible materials when sawdust is added. But I believe the adding of sawdust can make the oil easier to handle with very simple technology.Doug Stowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003845322415622289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-11479478919358745652010-05-14T21:31:11.102-05:002010-05-14T21:31:11.102-05:00The idea of an emulsion is to distribute one mater...The idea of an emulsion is to distribute one material in another, but in this case one material is coagulated in another, not emulsified.<br /><br />Check out the following link. <br />http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/emulsify<br /><br />So, I would not call what I've done in my mixing oil, sawdust and water, an emulsion. <br /><br />It would be nice to retire with millions, but I would rather retire to a clean planet. <br /><br />They have all kinds of devices designed to remove coagulated materials from water. For instance, boats with scoops for removing algae from lakes and rivers.Doug Stowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003845322415622289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-13620321556960477122010-05-14T21:04:09.046-05:002010-05-14T21:04:09.046-05:00"you essentially need some way to economicall..."you essentially need some way to economically scoop millions of gallons of goo from the water. Find that and you can retire with millions of dollars. You're over reaching again..." <br /><br />You can scoop goo pretty easily. I may be "over reaching again", but in a harmless manner. BP and it's many engineers from two major corporations were obviously over reaching and look at the consequences. That they seem to remain over their heads and demonstrating their lack of competence is a clear invitation to others to propose solutions.<br /><br />The article you referenced had nothing to do with clean up activities. It talked about moving oil, wood by-products and water through a pipeline, which I assume means that they had some way to remove the oil at the other end.Doug Stowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003845322415622289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-12194325159260830942010-05-14T20:02:08.985-05:002010-05-14T20:02:08.985-05:00I can't even begin to explain how different cr...I can't even begin to explain how different crude oil is from motor oil (refined from crude - very different products!). Regardless, you've essentially sped up the emulsification process (those engineers that don't know much about materials have looked at wood products for the same reason: http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a777979423). Congrats, now how do you clean it up? You can't use the normal & easy method of separating the oil and water, you essentially need some way to economically scoop millions of gallons of goo from the water. Find that and you can retire with millions of dollars. You're over reaching again...<br />- NickNAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-3566420276663232722010-05-14T15:51:14.632-05:002010-05-14T15:51:14.632-05:00Robin, the Guinness glass came from the British Is...Robin, the Guinness glass came from the British Isles, so it seemed most appropriate.<br /><br />No, I have not as yet done the experiment using salt water. I guess that should be next, but I really don't think the addition of salt in solution would have any effect except to make the oil/sawdust mix more buoyant.Doug Stowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003845322415622289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-91804934028117754102010-05-14T15:35:25.873-05:002010-05-14T15:35:25.873-05:00Have you considered the experiment using salt wate...Have you considered the experiment using salt water?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34011427.post-89368284337175390852010-05-14T12:55:18.077-05:002010-05-14T12:55:18.077-05:00What a terrible thing to do to a Guinness glass. ;...What a terrible thing to do to a Guinness glass. ;-)Robin Edgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208142626285495635noreply@blogger.com